[BCNnet] fencing FP areas; questions and important article
WJMarcisz@aol.com
WJMarcisz@aol.com
Sat, 8 Nov 2003 18:52:30 EST
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I think that Alan A & Judy M make very valid & important points.
Randi, you said "the train has already left the station."
Has it really? That is, has this issue already been voted on and passed?
If not, maybe it is too early to accept the Thatcher dog park as inevitable.
I can't help but think of this as a dangerous, precedent-setting land-grab by
a special interest group.
Walter Marcisz, Chicago, Cook Co.
WJMarcisz@aol.com
In a message dated 11/8/03 5:25:44 PM Central Standard Time,
judymellin@netzero.net writes:
> Alan- I'm sure there are others who would be very concerned about this
> issue because it far supercedes birds and birding. This is the beginning of the
> erosion of land held for public use.
>
> It seems to me that this is something that the Friends of the Forest
> Preserve would honcho with birders as a backup group. Why go to all the trouble of
> preserving forest preserve land if it is going to be set aside for private
> interests?
>
> Because it has happened once does not mean it has to happen again- but it
> can- and likely will- if folks do not get concerned. This is an issue for
> everyone who pays taxes and who will now find him/herself banned from public land.
>
> Judy Mellin
>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <A HREF="mailto:casresearch@comcast.net">Alan Anderson</A>
>> To: <A HREF="mailto:BCNnet@ece.iit.edu">BCNnet Listserv</A>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 1:30 PM
>> Subject: [BCNnet] fencing FP areas; questions and important article
>>
>>
>> The accompanying article (see below) was in the latest issue of the Des
>> Plaines Times, and possibly other local Pioneer Press papers. It is important
>> to read it to understand the current situation with regard to area forest
>> preserves and dog areas. Please understand that I am not opposed to dog
>> areas in general. What I don't fully understand, and really do worry about,
>> it that this both sets a dangerous precedent for other groups (it might be
>> the dog groups now, but it could be other groups later also) to ask for set
>> aside forest preserve areas for the use of a particular group, and keeps those
>> outside the paying group from using that area of the forest preserve.
>>
>> three areas of questions to think about (my concerns - but if others don't
>> have the same concerns, maybe I am missing something and didn't worry):
>>
>> 1) how far might this go? how many other groups will ask for forest
>> preserve areas to be set aside (fenced in and only 'those paying' can get in) and
>> when/where would it end? I certainly believe that this will not end with
>> just the Beck Lake and Thatcher area dog groups. The Beck Lake group is
>> at its permit level (3OO or 500?) already so you know that there are many dog
>> owners who might want a separate set-aside area in the forest preserves,
>> and maybe additional groups (not dog owners but other groups) that might want
>> a similar area in the future. And where? the Beck Lake dog area
>> includes a pond, a creek and adjacent wetlands - will wetlands always be the
>> desired spot?
>>
>> 2) if they want to "co-exist" with others, then why are all others kept
>> out of this area - a public forest preserve?
>>
>> 3) I doubt it would be good to discuss all of the issues/concerns involved
>> with them at their Nov. 18th meeting, but would it be ok to suggest that a
>> few Cook County Commissioners and members of Thatcher Dog get together with
>> reps from BCN to discuss the issues/concerns in the future? I certainly
>> don't want to get into a shouting match or arguments with them (as those who
>> know me certainly understand), but I do wish they (especially the
>> commissioners) would see some overall concerns that I and others might have about
>> 'fencing' in areas of our forest preserves, and keeping others out.
>>
>> Right now I have concerns about the issues and really would want to talk to
>> others who are sincere and willing to work together on this overall
>> situation. If others don't feel it could get out of control, or won't lead to "I
>> want mine too", please say so. I'm unsure just how important others feel
>> these issues are. If no one else but Judy and I are concerned, then maybe
>> I really am worrying too much about it. If the commissioners are for these
>> proposals have they looked at some of these concerns or questions and
>> determined that they won't be a problem?
>>
>> I guess I need to call Mike Quigley's office too, to get his opinion.
>>
>> anyhow, the article in question is below. It is filled with many
>> important facts and history.
>>
>> Alan Anderson, <A HREF="mailto:casresearch@comcast.net">casresearch@comcast.net</A> , Des Plaines
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <A HREF="mailto:casresearch@comcast.net">Alan Anderson</A>
>> To: <A HREF="mailto:alan52dp@comcast.net">alan52dp@comcast.net</A>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:58 PM
>> Subject: article: Going to the Dogs
>>
>>
>>
>> GOING TO THE DOGS
>> Owners Seek canine-friendly places in forest preserves
>> by Cathryn Gran and Irv Leavitt
>> Staff Writers
>> Pioneer Press
>> (this article appeared in The Des Plaines Times, Thursday, 11-6-03,
>> pp73-75, and possibly other PP papers)
>> Residents who founded the Beck Lake Dog Friendly Area between Glenview and
>> Des Plaines have three pieces of advice for anyone who wants something from
>> the Cook County Forest Preserve District:
>> - be prepared
>> - prove you have support
>> - don't give up
>> Their sage advice is being put to use by Thatcher DOG, a group of area dog
>> lovers.
>> Thatcher DOG is lobbying to create a dog-friendly area somewhere along
>> Thatcher Avenue between Madison Street and Irving Park Road.
>> Beck Lake organizer Gia Heybrock is coaching Thatcher DOG on its campaign.
>> Before Heybrock, Jan Stoltz and a few other dog owners took on the forest
>> preserve district three years ago, they first found out how other groups had
>> convinced area municipalities to allow dog parks.
>> Their initial stop was a pilgrimage to the woman who won Chicago's support
>> for the city's first public dog area, Wiggley Field, in 1992.
>> "Stacy Hawk showed us how to do it step by step, what to do to get the dog
>> park in," Heybrock said. "With Stacy there to help us, we didn't do anything
>> that didn't make sense.
>> "Basically, you have to get community support," added Heybrock, a Des
>> Plaines woman whose regular job is tending bar at Dino's Pizzeria on Chicago's
>> Northwest Side. "We had over 3,000 signatures on a petition."
>> The biggest factor in the Beck Lake effort's success was 'persistance",
>> said County Commissioner Mike Quigley, D-10th, who put Heybrock and her friends
>> on the County Board's agenda.
>> "They were persistent with the board, persistent with the superintendent,
>> persistent with the administration of the forest prserve district," Quigley
>> added.
>> "There are some really good people in the forest preserve who really care
>> about this, but they are stymied by ineffective management."
>> All Heybrock's group wanted was a fence around a few acres of land at the
>> sie of a pond with access to a parking lot so their dogs could run off-leash.
>> Similar considerations had been granted by municipalities and other
>> Illinois counties for a decade, so there was no necessity to reinvent the wheel.
>> Heybrock and her group were up to the task, Quigley said. They were never
>> at a loss for complete paperwork or allies to back them up in front of the
>> Conty Board or its committees.
>> "They had their ducks in order, people ready to testify, tons of
>> documentation, people to do lobbying." Quigley said. Their effort was "a good example
>> in any level of government".
>> Members of the Thatcher Woods Dog Owners Group are making good use of
>> suggestiosn offered by members of teh Beck Lake group. The Thatcher group
>> includes residents of Elmwood Park, Melrose Park, Oak Park, River Forest,
>> Riverside, Brookfield and Chicago.
>> "We have quite a few people who are interested in something other than some
>> of the smaller dog parks, which are cement," noted Beth Kaplan, one of the
>> Thatcher DOG co-chairs. Also helping organize the operation are Erika Arett,
>> Linda Funk, and Jim DeLauriea.
>> Kaplan credits Arnett as being the driving force behind the dog park.
>> Following in the paw prints of Beck Lake, Thatcher members started a
>> petition drive.
>> "We have well over 600 signatures, both online and hard copy," Kaplan said,
>> noting group members take every opportunity to gather more names at the
>> various events in which they participate.
>> They also plan on attending today's Cook County Board meeting, and possibly
>> address the board.
>> "We've attended one (meeting) so far just to see what was involved," Kaplan
>> said. "We wanted to present ourselves to commissioners. So, we introduced
>> ourselves and gave an update as to who we are and what we are trying to
>> accomplish.
>> "We already have met individually with four commissioners and they seemed
>> to be all for it".
>> The group also is trying to decide on a location for the dog park.
>> "There are two different areas we are focused on," Kaplan said. "We want to
>> work closely with forest preserve board to see which site would work
>> better."
>> The two locations are the preserves on the north side of Chicago Avenue
>> between Thatcher and First Avenues and the area ust south of Fullerton Avenue
>> and west of Thatcher.
>> "We do not want to knock heads with environments or any others," she
>> explained. "We want to co-exist. Once again, we really ned to work with the forest
>> preserve to see what's feasible."
>> The group will continue withits letter-writing campaining to all county
>> commissioners and try to add more signatures to its petitions, Kaplan said.
>> The group also will meet at 7:30pm Nov. 18 in the Oak Park Public Library,
>> 834 W. Lake St.
>> The meeting will be an important forum for dog lovers to voice their ideas
>> for a dog-friendly area, according to informatoin provided by the Thatcher
>> Woods Dog Owners Group.
>> The meeting will include a review of proposed sites and of results from the
>> Nov. 5 County Board meeting. The group will update the status of current
>> activities such as petition drive, letter writing campaign and public outreach
>> efforts.
>> Additional information about Thatcher DOG and its activities is available
>> by visiting www.ThatcherDog.com.
>>
>>
>
>
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>I think that Alan A &=
Judy M make very valid & important points.
<BR>Randi, you said "the train has already left the station."
<BR>Has it really? That is, has this issue already been voted on and passed?
<BR>If not, maybe it is too early to accept the Thatcher dog park as inevita=
ble.
<BR>I can't help but think of this as a dangerous, precedent-setting land-gr=
ab by a special interest group.
<BR>
<BR>Walter Marcisz, Chicago, Cook Co.
<BR>WJMarcisz@aol.com
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>In a message dated 11/8/03 5:25:44 PM Central Standard Time, judymellin@=
netzero.net writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-=
LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Alan- I'm sure there are ot=
hers who would be very concerned about this issue because it far supercedes=20=
birds and birding. This is the beginning of the erosion of land held f=
or public use.
<BR>=20
<BR>It seems to me that this is something that the Friends of the Forest Pre=
serve would honcho with birders as a backup group. Why go to all the t=
rouble of preserving forest preserve land if it is going to be set aside for=
private interests?
<BR>=20
<BR>Because it has happened once does not mean it has to happen again- but i=
t can- and likely will- if folks do not get concerned. This is an issu=
e for everyone who pays taxes and who will now find him/herself banned from=20=
public land.
<BR>=20
<BR>Judy Mellin
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-=
LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">----- Original Message ----=
-=20
<BR><B>From:</B> <A HREF=3D"mailto:casresearch@comcast.net">Alan Anderson</A=
>=20
<BR><B>To:</B> <A HREF=3D"mailto:BCNnet@ece.iit.edu">BCNnet Listserv</A>=20
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, November 08, 2003 1:30 PM
<BR><B>Subject:</B> [BCNnet] fencing FP areas; questions and important artic=
le
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>The accompanying article (see below) was in the latest issue of the Des=20=
Plaines Times, and possibly other local Pioneer Press papers. It=
is important to read it to understand the current situation with regard to=20=
area forest preserves and dog areas. Please understand that I am=
not opposed to dog areas in general. What I don't fully underst=
and, and really do worry about, it that this both sets a dangerous precedent=
for other groups (it might be the dog groups now, but it could be other gro=
ups later also) to ask for set aside forest preserve areas for the use of a=20=
particular group, and keeps those outside the paying group from using that a=
rea of the forest preserve. </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=
=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>=20
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">three areas of questions to think about (my concerns - but i=
f others don't have the same concerns, maybe I am missing something and didn=
't worry):</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>=20
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">1) how far might this go? how many other groups=20=
will ask for forest preserve areas to be set aside (fenced in and only 'thos=
e paying' can get in) and when/where would it end? I certainly b=
elieve that this will not end with just the Beck Lake and Thatcher area dog=20=
groups. The Beck Lake group is at its permit level (3OO or=
500?) already so you know that there are many dog owners who might wa=
nt a separate set-aside area in the forest preserves, and maybe additional g=
roups (not dog owners but other groups) that might want a similar area in th=
e future. And where? the Beck Lake dog area &n=
bsp;includes a pond, a creek and adjacent wetlands - will wetlands always be=
the desired spot? </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMI=
LY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>=20
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">2) if they want to "co-exist" with others, then why ar=
e all others kept out of this area - a public forest preserve?</FONT><FONT =20=
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>=20
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">3) I doubt it would be good to discuss all of the issu=
es/concerns involved with them at their Nov. 18th meeting, but would it be o=
k to suggest that a few Cook County Commissioners and members of Thatcher Do=
g get together with reps from BCN to discuss the issues/concerns in the futu=
re? I certainly don't want to get into a shouting match or=
arguments with them (as those who know me certainly understand), but I do w=
ish they (especially the commissioners) would see some overall concerns that=
I and others might have about 'fencing' in areas of our forest preserves, a=
nd keeping others out. </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SA=
NSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>=20
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">Right now I have concerns about the issues and really would=20=
want to talk to others who are sincere and willing to work together on this=20=
overall situation. If others don't feel it could get out of cont=
rol, or won't lead to "I want mine too", please say so. I'=
m unsure just how important others feel these issues are. If no=20=
one else but Judy and I are concerned, then maybe I really am worrying too m=
uch about it. If the commissioners are for these proposals have=20=
they looked at some of these concerns or questions and determined that they=20=
won't be a problem? </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=
=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>=20
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">I guess I need to call Mike Quigley's office too, to get his=
opinion. </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SAN=
SSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>=20
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">anyhow, the article in question is below. It is=20=
filled with many important facts and history.</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000"=
SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>=20
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">Alan Anderson, <A HREF=3D"mailto:casresearch@comcast.net">ca=
sresearch@comcast.net</A> , Des Plaines</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=
=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>=20
<BR>----- Original Message ----- <B>From:</B> <A HREF=3D"mailto:casresearch@=
comcast.net">Alan Anderson</A>=20
<BR><B>To:</B> <A HREF=3D"mailto:alan52dp@comcast.net">alan52dp@comcast.net<=
/A>=20
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:58 PM
<BR><B>Subject:</B> article: Going to the Dogs
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">GOING TO THE DOGS
<BR>Owners Seek canine-friendly places in forest preserves
<BR>by Cathryn Gran and Irv Leavitt
<BR>Staff Writers
<BR>Pioneer Press
<BR>(this article appeared in The Des Plaines Times, Thursday, 11-6-03, pp73=
-75, and possibly other PP papers)
<BR>Residents who founded the Beck Lake Dog Friendly Area between Glenview a=
nd Des Plaines have three pieces of advice for anyone who wants something fr=
om the Cook County Forest Preserve District:
<BR>- be prepared
<BR>- prove you have support
<BR>- don't give up
<BR>Their sage advice is being put to use by Thatcher DOG, a group of area d=
og lovers.
<BR>Thatcher DOG is lobbying to create a dog-friendly area somewhere along T=
hatcher Avenue between Madison Street and Irving Park Road.
<BR>Beck Lake organizer Gia Heybrock is coaching Thatcher DOG on its campaig=
n.
<BR>Before Heybrock, Jan Stoltz and a few other dog owners took on the fores=
t preserve district three years ago, they first found out how other groups h=
ad convinced area municipalities to allow dog parks.
<BR>Their initial stop was a pilgrimage to the woman who won Chicago's suppo=
rt for the city's first public dog area, Wiggley Field, in 1992.
<BR>"Stacy Hawk showed us how to do it step by step, what to do to get the d=
og park in," Heybrock said. "With Stacy there to help us, we didn't do anyth=
ing that didn't make sense.
<BR>"Basically, you have to get community support," added Heybrock, a Des Pl=
aines woman whose regular job is tending bar at Dino's Pizzeria on Chicago's=
Northwest Side. "We had over 3,000 signatures on a petition."
<BR>The biggest factor in the Beck Lake effort's success was 'persistance",=20=
said County Commissioner Mike Quigley, D-10th, who put Heybrock and her frie=
nds on the County Board's agenda.
<BR>"They were persistent with the board, persistent with the superintendent=
, persistent with the administration of the forest prserve district," Quigle=
y added.
<BR>"There are some really good people in the forest preserve who really car=
e about this, but they are stymied by ineffective management."
<BR>All Heybrock's group wanted was a fence around a few acres of land at th=
e sie of a pond with access to a parking lot so their dogs could run off-lea=
sh.
<BR>Similar considerations had been granted by municipalities and other Illi=
nois counties for a decade, so there was no necessity to reinvent the wheel.
<BR>Heybrock and her group were up to the task, Quigley said. They were neve=
r at a loss for complete paperwork or allies to back them up in front of the=
Conty Board or its committees.
<BR>"They had their ducks in order, people ready to testify, tons of documen=
tation, people to do lobbying." Quigley said. Their effort was "a good examp=
le in any level of government".
<BR>Members of the Thatcher Woods Dog Owners Group are making good use of su=
ggestiosn offered by members of teh Beck Lake group. The Thatcher group incl=
udes residents of Elmwood Park, Melrose Park, Oak Park, River Forest, Rivers=
ide, Brookfield and Chicago.
<BR>"We have quite a few people who are interested in something other than s=
ome of the smaller dog parks, which are cement," noted Beth Kaplan, one of t=
he Thatcher DOG co-chairs. Also helping organize the operation are Erika Are=
tt, Linda Funk, and Jim DeLauriea.
<BR>Kaplan credits Arnett as being the driving force behind the dog park.
<BR>Following in the paw prints of Beck Lake, Thatcher members started a pet=
ition drive.
<BR>"We have well over 600 signatures, both online and hard copy," Kaplan sa=
id, noting group members take every opportunity to gather more names at the=20=
various events in which they participate.
<BR>They also plan on attending today's Cook County Board meeting, and possi=
bly address the board.
<BR>"We've attended one (meeting) so far just to see what was involved," Kap=
lan said. "We wanted to present ourselves to commissioners. So, we introduce=
d ourselves and gave an update as to who we are and what we are trying to ac=
complish.
<BR>"We already have met individually with four commissioners and they seeme=
d to be all for it".
<BR>The group also is trying to decide on a location for the dog park.
<BR>"There are two different areas we are focused on," Kaplan said. "We want=
to work closely with forest preserve board to see which site would work bet=
ter."
<BR>The two locations are the preserves on the north side of Chicago Avenue=20=
between Thatcher and First Avenues and the area ust south of Fullerton Avenu=
e and west of Thatcher.
<BR>"We do not want to knock heads with environments or any others," she exp=
lained. "We want to co-exist. Once again, we really ned to work with the for=
est preserve to see what's feasible."
<BR>The group will continue withits letter-writing campaining to all county=20=
commissioners and try to add more signatures to its petitions, Kaplan said.
<BR>The group also will meet at 7:30pm Nov. 18 in the Oak Park Public Librar=
y, 834 W. Lake St.
<BR>The meeting will be an important forum for dog lovers to voice their ide=
as for a dog-friendly area, according to informatoin provided by the Thatche=
r Woods Dog Owners Group.
<BR>The meeting will include a review of proposed sites and of results from=20=
the Nov. 5 County Board meeting. The group will update the status of current=
activities such as petition drive, letter writing campaign and public outre=
ach efforts.
<BR>Additional information about Thatcher DOG and its activities is availabl=
e by visiting www.ThatcherDog.com.
<BR>
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